From:
Date: Sat Feb 8, 2003 5:21:34 PM US/Eastern
To: kkb@atlanticbeachlaw.com
Subject: Who are you? The Union Pacific????

While I can understand about the Logo, I have misgivings about your concern of the use of timetables. I am in possession of a map of the NE/mid-atlantic railroads and several other documents. My question to you is now this: Are you going to come to my house and repossess that which I have LEGALLY PURCHASED? Are you going to also take my computer and my photos as well???
While I too am concerned about National Security, at what point do we say "Enough is enough??" Since most rail-fans know the area in which we fan and who "looks" suspicious and those that do not? Don't you think we would make a note or take a picture to give that person reason to leave and pick a different target? I enjoy "fanning" and have no intention of stopping. I will and do obey ALL laws and use common sense while near the tracks, and encourage those I fan with to do the same. In conclusion I will say this. When we the Free American Public allow a group, ANY group, stop us from going to baseball games,football games the mall,or anywhere else, than that group has us held hostage. And I refuse to be held hostage as, I am sure many others look at things the same way. When YOU take away my freedoms then what do I have left?

" Give me Liberty, or Give Me Death"

Dear Mr. Miller,

I write on behalf of CSX Transportation, Inc.

CSXT has reviewed your website and is pleased by your enthusiasm for the
details of its operations. A couple of aspects of your site are cause for
concern, however, and require your immediate remedy:

1. Timetables: The timetables are impressive compilations of information,
but potentially pose both safety and operations concerns. In this era of
heightened security, the posting of detailed timetables, indiscriminately
available to the public at large, may augment the security risk to the
railroad. .
2. CSX Transportation Logos: The CSX Transportation and heritage logos may
not be used without the express written permission of CSXT. The Company has
not and would not grant permission in this instance because the use of the
logos in connection with the timetables increases the chances that the
timetables will be seen as approved by CSXT, despite your disclaimer.

CSXT hereby requests that you remove the timetables and CSXT proprietary
marks from your website. Thank you for your cooperation. Please contact me
should you have any questions.

Karen Koster Burr, Esq.
alt. email: kkb@atlanticbeachlaw.com

[This message has been edited by CSXFANDAN (edited 02-08-2003).]

The proper form of such a notice is "Copyright 2003 John Doe." You can use the Circle-C in place of "Copyright" or there's some acceptable abbreviation.

In the absense of any other dating method, you can also mail a copy to yourself. If it has a dated postmark, registered mail is unnecessary. Also unnecessary in most cases is to go through the filing procedures with the Copyright of the Library of Congress; you will observe that newspapers and magazines rarely do that.

For example, your reply to Ms Burr above, by virtue of being published on this forum is now officially copyrighted and protected. If I were to use it elsewhere you could sue me. (To the purists, yes, for simplification I am ignoring compilation copyrights and fair use provisions here.)

1) Send an apology to Mr. Miller for you response with something to the effect that his communication caught you completely off guard and your response may have been ill-considered.

2) Remove official CSXT logos and inform him of the removal.

3) If you have posted a recent 'Employee Timetable', remove it. You cannot legally purchase a recent CSX Employee Timetable. They would be considered stolen. It was very good of him not to mention this to you.

4) His points were well taken and addressed with logic and firmness without being belligerent or threatening.

For the sake of all Railfans, cooperate with the railroads that we enjoy watching.

I would like to see your site. Would you give us the URL?

Roger

I'm not totally sure, but I think a second copy of the image must be sent via the same sealed, return receipt, method, to another person who has requested a copy of said photo, with or without financial exchange, and both persons need be present to open both packages at the copyright grant meeting.

Maybe I'm wrong; but it's been 12 years since I took that business law class in high school. I DO know, however, that the process for photos does vary somewhat from that of text-based documents

Just to clarify matters, Mr. Miller (a.k.a. CSXFANDAN???) is the guy running the web site. The attorney representing CSXT is Karen Koster Burr.

I agree with Roger. Ms. Burr's requests are polite and reasonable. Yes, like all corporations, the railroad is being territorial about their logo. But when it comes to their train schedules, more important issues are at stake:

- The security of CSX's property (tracks, locomotives, railroad cars)

- The security of their customers' property (the contents of those railroad cars)

- The safety of their train crews and of the people living along the right-of-way -- which, let's face it, is the most important factor of all.

CSXFANDAN, I trust you're normally as polite and reasonable as Ms. Burr seems to be. But with your hot-headed response to her e-mail, you've portrayed yourself as a frothing lunatic -- the kind of "railfan" that railroad employees understandably despise. I assume this wasn't your goal.

Lighten up, Chief. It's only a web site, not the Declaration of Independence.

As far as I can remember, the main bulk of the content were track plans, albeit simplified, especially around yards. If that is the case, can anybody explain why this is a security risk? If not, then what else was on the site that would pose a security risk?

I must admit I'm more in the "our liberties are being eroded" camp and do feel that some reactions to security are over the top. But if anybody can give a rational explanation to the above risks then I'll be happy.

In the name of freedom, would you also say that the reposting of one of my photos into a public forum would be fine, even after the Copyright notice on the photo was removed? Yes, that happened to me.

I believe in freedom, but I also respect Copyright and Trade Mark and that is what this is about. If you don't like the law, change it. :-)

I'll not get into a p-----g contest over this.

One example is, say, a news story about some company. Regardless of the nature of the story, the newspaper can legally run the company's logo alongside and even quote small portions of company material, such as a sentence from an annual report. You just cannot use substantial portions.

If you have a Web site which is a list of links to railroad companies you can legally put a copy of each company's logo on the page. Just because a company has copyrighted/trademarked a product name doesn't mean that permission is required to say it, just as CSX cannot tell us to stop using their name when we are discussing them.

Read the letter from CSXT's attorney carefully. She makes it very clear that the railroad has no objections to most of the web site's content.

The railroad has a problem with only two areas:

1) The unauthorized use of the company logo.

2) The freight timetables.

The logo copyright issue is a minor point, and CSX is hardly acting in an unusual fashion. Similar use of any corporate logo would trigger similar legal action from every corporation in America -- from Disney to Nike to MTV Networks to Burger King. That's simply how corporations operate.

Posting the railroad's freight timetables, however, can have far more serious consequences -- for the reasons mentioned in my earlier post.

Interestingly enough, BNSF has had employee timetables on their own site available to anybody for some time now. They don't seem to regard that as sensitive. Was there more information on the CSX fan site than on the BNSF official site?

As regards to copyright, yes CSX have every right to ask the information to be withdrawn, I don't disagree with that. It's their laywers stating "in the name of security" for parts of it that gets me.

Remember, trains often haul extremely deadly materials -- jet fuel, toxic chemicals, and even radioactive waste. As they pass through densely populated areas, they're perfect targets for sabotage. Especially in the aftermath of Sept. 11th. Especially with war and its potential consequences looming.

Since train crews, people living near the tracks, and even foamers with an overblown sense of entitlement could easily become casualties, CSX's caution regarding train movement information makes total sense.

I don't know about anyone else out there. But if I ran CSX? I damn sure wouldn't endanger the lives of my workmates, or a trackside town filled with women and children, simply to humor some clueless railfan's "God-given right" to run a web site devoted to his weekend hobby.

I'm not trying to cause an arguement, I just want the facts!

Depends strictly on how they have it registered...televised sports, for example, are copyrited broadcasts, but can be recorded for home use. Some logos are registered the same way, some are not.

As for our freedoms being taken away; I am a hunter, gun owner, and in favor of gun control laws, (if you kill someone, you don't go free; if you use it to hunt, the government has no right to take it from you).
freedom of speech is, and always will be, a 'GREY AREA' for this country. Business law came about to protect our economy.Copyright laws were introduced because people were using exact copies of logos from other people, thus confusing the consumer, harming the original user's livelihood, and in turn, the area economy. If the logo is registered as a 'restricted copyright', it is not SUPPOSED to be used in a manner which could allow the theft and use of that logo. In which case, they are in violation of copyright laws themselves by allowing it to be included as a separate image, which can be used by others. In case nobody has noticed, there ARE some images, text, etc., which you cannot copy, save, or reproduce by common methods; which exist online. This is how the logo was to be added.

That is all, go on about your normal day now.

quote:

---

Originally posted by dilly:
What BNSF does (or doesn't do) isn't the really the issue. We're talking about CSX, who are understandably alarmed about "fans" posting the railroad's freight timetables on their personal web sites.

Remember, trains often haul extremely deadly materials -- jet fuel, toxic chemicals, and even radioactive waste. As they pass through densely populated areas, they're perfect targets for sabotage.

**** Especially in the aftermath of Sept. 11th. Especially with war and its potential consequences looming.****

Since train crews, people living near the tracks, and even foamers with an overblown sense of entitlement could easily become casualties, CSX's caution regarding train movement information makes total sense.

I don't know about anyone else out there. But if I ran CSX? I damn sure wouldn't endanger the lives of my workmates, or a trackside town filled with women and children, simply to humor some clueless railfan's "God-given right" to run a web site devoted to his weekend hobby.

[This message has been edited by dilly (edited 02-19-2003).]

---

PEOPLE, THE SECTION OF THIS QUOTE,(WHICH I HAVE HIGHLIGHTED), ALARMS ME. THE WHOLE OBJECTIVE OF THE ATTACK THAT DAY WAS TO SHOW THAT THEY COULD HAVE SOME NOTICEABLE EFFECT ON OUR WAY OF LIFE. WELL, MOST OF THE CURRENT ISSUES LIKE THE ONES WE ARE DISCUSSING HERE, HAVE COME ABOUT SINCE THAT DAY, RIGHT.....

THIS BEING THE CASE... WE'VE BEEN BEATEN! PLAIN AND SIMPLE, THE ATTACK WAS A SUCCESS IN THAT THEY HAVE TURNED US AGAINST EACH OTHER, NOW THAT THE FOCUS IS AWAY FROM THEM. CSX HAS OVER-REACTED TO THE SECURITY PARANOIA...BNSF HAS NOT.

END OF F*****G STORY

------------------
Cory (o:}=

"1. Timetables: The timetables are impressive compilations of information, but potentially pose both safety and operations concerns. In this era of heightened security, the posting of detailed timetables, indiscriminately available to the public at large, may augment the security risk to the
railroad."

Seems pretty clear to me.

For example, an answer might be "It contains detailed instructions on how to mis-wire a signal to give a false aspect". That's about as simple, concise, and unambiguous a statement as I need. If you don't know, then please say so.

I don't think I can phrase my question any clearer than that.

Timetables plot train movements -- i.e. where a train will be at a particular hour on a particular day, barring unanticipated delays.

That's highly useful information for train crews, yard crews, the suits in the head office, and the railroad's commercial customers.

But when combined with shipping information acquired elsewhere, it would also be useful for anyone with less-than-benign intentions -- i.e. someone interested in knowing what time a trainload of toxic chemicals will pass through Albany, or Syracuse, or downtown Cleveland.

I'm no fan of lawyers or corporations, but CSX is clearly trying to plug security holes wherever it can. With her letter, Ms. Burr was attempting to do so logically and fairly.

Remember boys and girls: every single "fan" web site out there (including the one I'm building) is nothing more than a fancy Arts and Crafts project. And neither CSX, nor BNSF, nor Amtrak exist simply to provide us with entertainment.

On that note, I rest my case.

Thanks

As for why she hasn't responded to your e-mail? Sorry to burst your bubble, Tyrone. If her letter wasn't addressed to you in the first place, she doesn't owe you a response.

Then again, look on the bright side. At the very least, I'm sure she found your rant-fest entertaining.

I will tell you - you get more flies with honey than muriatic acid