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Author
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Topic: Warning - FBI reports al-Qaida rail strikes targeting U.S. passenger rail possible
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CK
Full Member Posts: 216
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 10-24-2002 08:32 PM
  
MSNBC News (Oct 24): FBI reports that al-Qaida may target the U.S. railroad system and that "information from debriefings of al-Qaida detainees as of mid-October indicate the group has considered directly targeting U.S. passenger trains, possibly using operatives who have a western appearance," the warning said. The article goes on to report, "other intelligence indicates that terrorists may try striking key railroad bridges or sections of track to cause derailments."
A terrorist attack on Amtrak, by any means, could have disastrous results to our U.S. passenger rail system.
Your comments are appreciated. [This message has been edited by CK (edited 10-30-2002).] [This message has been edited by CK (edited 10-30-2002).] IP: Logged |
Eric
Full Member Posts: 499
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 10-24-2002 09:06 PM
Although we can't protect every mile of track, RR crews and bulls will keep a very close eye on anything and everything. Hijacking a train seems "unrealistic" to me, as a train is set on a fixed path, and they have emergency braking features (on and off the train), along with ways to intentionally derail it (such as throwing it off on a siding) if it becomes necessary. A train can't hit a building at around 500MPH, either. I don't know much about planes, but I know they can't be diverted from a target very easily, as we saw last year.
However, hijacking is probably the smallest, if even existent, possibility...
I guess we'd better go to 'Terror Alert Level: Off-white almond.'IP: Logged |
irish1
Full Member Posts: 87
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 10-24-2002 09:50 PM
the scary part is that it is impossible to safeguard every mile of track in this country. i think the railroads are very vulnerable in this. i hope we catch and kill every one of these bastards.IP: Logged |
irishchieftain
Full Member Posts: 282
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 10-24-2002 10:07 PM
Easy there, mo chara...if you want to throw things into perspective, there were plenty of bombings of cross-border rail services between Dublin and Belfast, but trains like the Enterprise soldiered on notwithstanding.If anything happened to US trains, the rail system sure won't be shut down in a panic as the aviation system was after 9/11, at least as I see it. Don't forget, the US has a lot more resources to draw on than Ireland and even modern-day Britain... IP: Logged |
Gilbert B Norman
Full Member Posts: 424
Registered: Apr 2002
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posted 10-25-2002 05:28 AM
This subject made NBC Nightly News last evening. On NBC a straingt report was delivered by Mrs. Greenspan (aka Andrea Mitchell)without any "clips' as backdrop.There was also a segment (10 seconds) on CBS Radio News this morning. Even though the damage that could be done by any hand carried explosive device would likely be limited to the car in which detonated, lest we forget that there is something approaching "a planeload" of passengers in a New York "M-Series" car; more in a Chicago area bi-level. IP: Logged |
CK
Full Member Posts: 216
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 10-25-2002 05:46 AM
Since in all practical terms Amtrak cannot properly screen all passengers boarding their trains throughout their system it would be next to impossible to prevent someone from getting a weapon on the train.
Amtrak maybe considering placing members of it's police force aboard their trains in the same manner that the airlines use federal air marshals.
I recommend that Amtrak passengers become especially vigilant to suspicious activity of any kind aboard the train and report their concerns immediately to the Conductor. [This message has been edited by CK (edited 10-30-2002).] IP: Logged |
MPALMER
Full Member Posts: 735
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 10-25-2002 08:20 AM
CK-
The advice to be especially vigilant is a good idea no matter what travel mode you use. (Note the recent Greyhound accidents where the drivers have been attacked).
We live in a very trusting and open country and there is no way we can protect everything.
But at least the events of Flight 93 indicate that FINALLY you are allowed to "fight back" if you feel that is the way to go. Too often the advice to travelers was 'cooperate with the criminal and you'll be spared', but that does not seem to be the case with terrorists.
MPIP: Logged |
Southwest Chief
Full Member Posts: 211
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 10-25-2002 05:19 PM
Let us not forget the Sunset Limited that derailed as a result of terrorism/sabotage. I'm talking about the 10/9/95 derailment in Hyder, Arizona, when some rails were "realigned". This resulted in one fatality to a crew member. If it happened before, it can happen again. I'm kind of edgy since I'll be traveling on the Southwest Chief during Thanksgiving (a prime time to strike if any) I hope nothing will happen but it certainly can and there is really nothing you can do to prevent such an act. I just can't imagine what kind of idiot would do such a thing, but then look at the east coast sniper. Times certainly have changed but I'm still going to take the train. Those terrorists can't take that from me!
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coach34135
Full Member Posts: 139
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 10-25-2002 07:35 PM
The rails are just too easy to mess up, there goes our trains if they do.Look how easy it was for that one jerk to derail the Sunset Limited in AZ. It doesn't take a genius to trick the signals like that guy did. Even if they derail a train, doesnt mean everyone will die on it. Even a bomb...maybe one car would blow up the others would be fine, but then it would derail. [This message has been edited by coach34135 (edited 10-25-2002).] IP: Logged |
Ken V
Full Member Posts: 129
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 10-25-2002 08:12 PM
The attacks of 9/11 showed these terrorists were more interested in using the aircraft as weapons against their targets of American economic interests than killing the passengers on board.That's not to say others won't make an Amtrak train and its passengers a target. As some here have said, an attack on a passenger train, although disasterous, won't have the devastation close to 9/11, Oklahoma City, Hurricane Andrew, and several other events. I'm more concerned about potential freight incidents. IP: Logged |
dilly
Full Member Posts: 409
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 10-25-2002 10:57 PM
This brings to mind those weird messages recently posted on several TrainWeb message boards by a "college student" who claimed to be working on a history class project about the Pullman Strike.As some of you might recall, he/she not only wanted information about what goes on in train yards, but wanted pointers on the best way to knock a train off its tracks. What's more, he also wanted diagrams if possible! Now, maybe he was truly working on a school project. Or maybe this was just his idea of a lame post-9/11 joke. But his questions sounded fishy, especially since they strayed so far from the usually benign topics discussed on these boards. My point: several members responded with fairly detailed answers. A good idea? A stupid idea? You decide. [This message has been edited by dilly (edited 10-25-2002).] IP: Logged |
efin98
Full Member Posts: 55
Registered: Sep 2002
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posted 10-25-2002 11:59 PM
Questions like that put me on edge. I dont get the connection between the Pullman Strike and what goes on in train yards. Or even why he/she would ask something so stupid like "what is the best way to knock a train off it's tracks". I hope somebody put the red flag up and contacted the authorities.IP: Logged |
CK
Full Member Posts: 216
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 10-26-2002 06:53 AM
Dilly, I agree with your concern about the question asked by the "college student". A little research determined it was RJMamula who made 5 similar postings all asking about train derailments between 9/25 & 9/27 and has not made a posting since.
I mean no disrespect against RJMamula, who in all likelihood is a college student, however, in light of our Government warnings against possible terrorists attacks, I would caution good intention members against providing sensitive information, especially to individuals who are unknown to the members.
Let's keep our rails as safe as we can.
[This message has been edited by CK (edited 10-26-2002).] IP: Logged |
CP-home
Junior Member Posts: 17
Registered: Sep 2002
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posted 10-28-2002 03:17 AM
I would think that whether you are a "college student" or not, you come across as very suspicious asking questions like those even before 9/11! And even more perplexing is get to detailed responses from others on how such things are done! And here I was planning to go back to filming/watching trains at trainspots (after 9 years), NEVERMIND, we already look "suspicious" when we do that!IP: Logged |
sideout1961
Junior Member Posts: 15
Registered: Jan 2002
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posted 10-28-2002 09:22 AM
If you go to the "travel" postings on this forum under "where are the travelers" look at my trip I took in September and you will find that our security forces are working.
Sideout1961[This message has been edited by sideout1961 (edited 10-28-2002).] IP: Logged |
MPALMER
Full Member Posts: 735
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 10-28-2002 11:11 AM
It was odd that "RJMamula" is from HammondIN and did not know where yards were. Isn't that like living in St Louis and asking where the arch is?IP: Logged |
dilly
Full Member Posts: 409
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 10-28-2002 09:47 PM
My basic point was this: regardless of who or what the guy "claimed" to be, he may not have been from Hammond, IN. And he may not have been a "college student" working on a project. In the brave new world of cyberspace, each of us can claim to be. . . anyone. And anything. But thanks to those responders who insisted on being so helpful? He now has several small but useful pieces of information about disabling or destroying a train. Information that he didn't have before. [This message has been edited by dilly (edited 10-28-2002).] IP: Logged |
CP-home
Junior Member Posts: 17
Registered: Sep 2002
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posted 10-28-2002 10:42 PM
I only look at certain topics so I didn't see this initially, but I do see now that this person asked the same questions at the Eastern, Central and Western discussions forums. Not to be paranoid, but Hmmmmmm. IP: Logged |
Mr. Toy
Full Member Posts: 1202
Registered: Dec 2000
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posted 10-29-2002 12:28 AM
I'm inclined to agree with dilly, here. Back when I saw the original posting on the Western Railfan board. I, too, was concerned that this guy might not have been on the level. On at least one occasion I saw a similar post on another board and had a similar reaction. When questioned about motives that person disappeared.Nobody on the Western board revealed anything significant, and SteveD seemed to be on the alert. On the Central board someone wisely answered that he knew how to derail a train but wouldn't reveal it here. But somebody on the Eastern board was not so cautious. To them I will say, we must all be on the alert these days. Homeland Security begins with us. "Loose brains derail trains."
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Trust God, love your neighbor, and never mistake opinion for truth.
-Mr. Toy
The Del Monte Club Car [This message has been edited by Mr. Toy (edited 10-29-2002).] IP: Logged |
Southwest Chief
Full Member Posts: 211
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 10-29-2002 05:14 PM
I hope no one was suspicious of a post I did awhile back. The one on Amtrak derailments. I did this because I was interested in which Superliners were repaired and which were scrapped. I like to know the history of the cars I travel in, it gives them a kind of personality. I'm in no means interested in wrecking a train. But as I viewed that other guy's post, it did look more suspicious then mine. IP: Logged |
Ken V
Full Member Posts: 129
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 10-29-2002 08:25 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Southwest Chief:
I hope no one was suspicious of a post I did awhile back. The one on Amtrak derailments. I did this because I was interested in which Superliners were repaired and which were scrapped. I like to know the history of the cars I travel in, it gives them a kind of personality. I'm in no means interested in wrecking a train. But as I viewed that other guy's post, it did look more suspicious then mine.
Southwest Chief...Since your question was of a historical nature and you have been a regular poster on this forum about different topics I didn't question it. On the other hand, RJMamula's posts were all directed at one subject initially - how to cause a derailment. Later questions about decoupling seemed to be suspicious as well. While I have limited knowledge on these subjects, I wasn't about to share anything I knew with this individual even after the college student explanation. I also suspect some of those who did reply intentionally left out some key points. What I didn't think about was warning other members about giving out sensitive information or reporting the posts to authorities. [This message has been edited by Ken V (edited 10-30-2002).] IP: Logged |
dilly
Full Member Posts: 409
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 10-29-2002 09:25 PM
I'm no fan of censorship. But if suspicious-sounding questions turn up on these boards in the future, I suggest we immediately post a polite but firm warning response.If nothing else, it might prevent the more trusting and/or clueless members among us from responding before thinking. The strengths of these boards can also be drawbacks. Many people are extremely knowledgable and even obsessive about their favorite subjects. I, for one, have learned a lot. But let's not let our enthusiasm take the place of common sense. IP: Logged |
Mr. Toy
Full Member Posts: 1202
Registered: Dec 2000
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posted 10-29-2002 10:27 PM
Southwest Chief, I don't recall your specific post, but I don't recall that you ever asked how to derail a train. It not just rail boards that require alertness. On a cell phone board someone recently asked how the transmitters worked and how they could be modified. Fortunately the regular folks over there were immediately suspicious, too. ------------------
Trust God, love your neighbor, and never mistake opinion for truth.
-Mr. Toy The Del Monte Club Car IP: Logged |
dilly
Full Member Posts: 409
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 10-29-2002 10:40 PM
I agree with the others, Southwest Chief. I recall seeing your post and never thought it was anything but honest.However, the various posts by our "mystery guest" gave me the creeps. Unfortunately, I didn't see them until after a number of people had already responded to his questions. IP: Logged |
efin98
Full Member Posts: 55
Registered: Sep 2002
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posted 10-29-2002 11:14 PM
You asked a question that didnt deal with sensitive information, just about the aftermath of a derailment(which should have an NTSB report that anybody may obtain, IIRC) and it's effect on current operations. Just by your word choice and your status as a contributing member of this forum is enough for us to believe it was a benign inquiry.IP: Logged |
MPALMER
Full Member Posts: 735
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 10-30-2002 04:20 PM
Does anyone know if a formal report was made to the authorities about the initial posts by Mamula? If not is it worth doing now?
I'm less concerned about the fact that posts were made on multiple forums, as some other folks have done that too.IP: Logged |
atsf3751
Full Member Posts: 243
Registered: Apr 2002
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posted 10-30-2002 04:55 PM
This is a very legitimate concern. I removed my post on the Western answering "Mamula's" questions in detail. At the time, it never occurred to me, and I had forgotten that I had even placed that post. In the future, I will watch what I post more closely. In the same vein, I would encourage those who posted detailed answers on the Eastern Forum to edit and remove their posts as well (conrail kid and coach34135). He may have already read them, but at least it helps for the future.At the same time, I'd like to point out that detailed information on railroads (including answers to all the questions he asked, often in even more detail than our posts gave him) appears in many publications from TRAINS Magazine to books to timetables, all easily obtainable by your average Joe. More likely than not, none of the posts really helped him out a great deal. Even so, it should encourage us all to watch what we post. Since law enforcement can't possibly catch evey little thing, it's up to us to be alert and cautious of anything suspicious. Thanks to those on the board who caught the potential problem. IP: Logged |
dilly
Full Member Posts: 409
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 10-30-2002 04:56 PM
The gentlemen who host this site in Fullerton might have already made a phone call weeks ago. If not, maybe they should.True, only a few responses provided small kernels of useful information. But if someone gets a small piece of info from one source, and marries it to bits of information they've gleaned from other sources. . . See what I mean? Then again, it's quite possible that a federal employee is already keeping an eye on these boards and others like them. Just think of it as another good reason to check your spelling and punctuation before you post. [This message has been edited by dilly (edited 10-30-2002).] IP: Logged |
CK
Full Member Posts: 216
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 10-30-2002 05:45 PM
I wanted to thank all of you for your well thoughtout responses regarding RJMamula. It speaks well of the people on this board and the responsibility that we all share.
atsf371, I commend you on your decision to edit your post.
Dilly, although not in an official capacity, I have "kept an eye" on these boards since 9/11.
Once again, a job "well done" to all![This message has been edited by CK (edited 10-30-2002).] IP: Logged |
atsf3751
Full Member Posts: 243
Registered: Apr 2002
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posted 11-08-2002 11:52 PM
RJMamula has posted again (see eastern or central RR forums). The nature of the question is again rather odd. I'd really like to know who he really is.IP: Logged |
CK
Full Member Posts: 216
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 11-09-2002 10:10 AM
RJMamula has posted on the Western, Central, and Eastern boards.
I recommend that members do not respond to any questions, by any "members" asking questions about derailments or questions regarding security procedures. Thank you.
IP: Logged |
dilly
Full Member Posts: 409
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 11-10-2002 03:00 PM
The earlier posts made me suspicious. These latest posts make it very clear: Beware.[This message has been edited by dilly (edited 11-11-2002).] IP: Logged |
RJMamula
Junior Member Posts: 14
Registered: Sep 2002
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posted 11-11-2002 07:16 AM
I was just trying to get help findung resources. I did not know I would be creating such suspicion. I posted on all three forums thinking that would broaden my chances. I am a law abiding citizen. My project is on trains in the Pullman Strike. Switches, uncoupling and derailing all played an important role in it. I will take your advice and no longer ask these questions here. If there is anything I can do to verify that I am not a terrorist please let me know.IP: Logged |
atsf3751
Full Member Posts: 243
Registered: Apr 2002
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posted 11-11-2002 10:35 AM
It might help (and make us less suspicious) if you would describe the nature of the assignment or some background on the Pullman Strike since none of us seem to be very familiar with it. You need to explain WHY derailing and uncoupling were important to knowlege of this strike, because otherwise it is VERY suspicious. (The other question I have is what kind of class is this?) Finally, if this really is a legit assignment, there are plenty of places where you can find the things you're asking about besides on this discussion forum (i.e., your local library).IP: Logged |
RJMamula
Junior Member Posts: 14
Registered: Sep 2002
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posted 11-11-2002 12:36 PM
I will be happy to explain it. The class is making a CD rom of the Pullman Strike. The Pullman strike took place over a period of several months in 1894. George Pullman was the inventor of the Pullman Sleeper. The town of Pullman IL (now part of Chicago) was where the factory that made these cars was located. Many of the houses in the town were owned by Mr. Pullman and many of his workers rented from him. When the workers were facing financial problems, they asked for either a pay raise or rent cuts and Pullman refused. As a result the workers struck. Later, rairoad workers of the American railway union, under the leadership of Eugene Debs, supported these strikers by boycotting the Pullman cars. Early in the strike, railroad workers would stop trains pulling the Pullman cars pull them over into the railyards and detatch the cars before the trains were allowed to procede. Later the strike got violent and the railroad workers started derail the trains. Eventually, the federal government had to get involved and the strike ended with the arrest of Debs.When we were discussing ideas for the project, I came up with the idea of doing a segment on the trains, so I am incharge of that portion of the project. The segmant is covering information on trainyards, switches, how the trains were derailed and what the different types of cars were like. I have found the information I need, a little from here but mostly from books and other resources. The reason I asked about pictures of coupling and switches is that I am looking for pictures that are not copywrighted. The professor suggested that pictures of switches and couplings would be helpful. Perhaps it turns out that this forum is not that helpful for that. My main concern is that I want to clear any suspicion that I am trying to derail a train. I find it suprising that many of you train enthuseist do not know anything about the Pullman Strike and perhaps it is something you would be interested in learning about. Well let me know what you think IP: Logged |
irish1
Full Member Posts: 87
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 11-11-2002 02:23 PM
i have heard of the pullman stike and good luck with your project. i am also proud of the members of this board for being suspicious. thats the kind of effort we need to fight terrorism because the government cant do it all.IP: Logged |
dilly
Full Member Posts: 409
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 11-11-2002 02:24 PM
Thanks for clarifying matters. But I trust that you fully understand why your questions raised serious red flags. I think many of us are familiar with the Pullman Strike and how violent it became. However, your professor should be told that, in the current climate, it's an extremely bad idea to include detailed descriptions of derailing and uncoupling procedures (not to mention photos of switches and couplers)in the project. Especially if the project is going to end up on a CD or, possibly, a college web site. Frankly, I can't see why it's necessary to describe in detail how to disable a train. If your professor has a problem with this, have him post a message to us on this board. IP: Logged |
RJMamula
Junior Member Posts: 14
Registered: Sep 2002
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posted 11-11-2002 02:45 PM
Thank You. I am very relieved that we came to this understanding. I felt very scared and I feel very bad for the suspicion it created. I made a mistake and I have learned from it. Take care.IP: Logged |
atsf3751
Full Member Posts: 243
Registered: Apr 2002
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posted 11-11-2002 04:07 PM
RJ, so long as you cite the sources, there should be no problem with you using pictures from books. When researchers use pictures or text from other sources, so long as the cite the book and the author, it is not considered plagiarism. In the case of a CD ROM, you might want to create a section that rolls credits or something, and cite your sources there.IP: Logged |
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